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Touring Skis (again)

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Author	Message
Simon Duvivier	Friday 05 March 2010 10:50:11 am Following the various uncomplimentary comments about my existing ski equipment on a recent tour with you, I went into all the shops in Argentiere looking at replacement gear. There seemed to be several touring skis available with the right under foot width (85 - 90 mm) and all really light. However when I compared them with a "normal" ski, the weight saving on touring systems had mostly come from making the ski much thinner. Surely this must mean that they are less robust and likely to wear out much faster? Also there is much less "meat" to attach the bindings. I still like to ski now and then on the piste so need a setup which is univeral and has a bit of grip in hard and icy conditions. Would these really thin and light skis do the job? I suppose with all the other extra expenditure involved (skins, couteaux, and stoppers) one might as well go the whole hog and buy dynafit bindings as well? (rather than new Fritschi) Now searching for finance to implement any new purchase.
Andy Perkins	Saturday 06 March 2010 9:42:25 am Hi Simon It's quite important to keep a wide view when selecting skis for touring. If you go into a shop asking about touring skis, they will automatically steer you towards the lighter end of the range aimed at ski touring racing. Manufacturers will too. If you look at Scott's reply to Mike Rae at http://www.andypmountainguide.com...base2/Ask-Andy/Touring-Skis-for-2010 talking about the Crusair, the product manager says "It’s a versatile performance ski for all terrains and condition. At 1600 g this is not a super light hiking ski. The Crusair is 100% a new concept between mountaineering and freeride." Many other freeride skis will be suitable for touring. Of course they will be heavier, so you can offset that weight increase with Dynafit bindings. However, the grip in hard and icy conditions that you're after has nothing to do with the weight specifically but with the stiffness of the ski. Stiffness can be engineered in with the materials without a significant increase in weight, such as the Crusair or the Dynastar Altitrail Powder which I am skiing on at the moment. I should add straight away that I am finding the Altitrail almost too stiff, so I wouldn't recommend it for you. Will the ski wear out faster? That will depend more on your treatment of it than the ski. I get 2 to 3 years use out of my light touring skis doing about 6 weeks a year on them. Will the bindings rip out of the base? I've never seen or heard of that happening in normal use. So - in summary - check out a load of skis if you can on different hardnesses of snow. Remember that we also get hard snow while touring, not just on the piste. Go for a wide ski, and counter the inevitable increase in weight with a Dynafit binding. I'm doing my end of year accounts right now and every year my biggest single category of expenditure is ski kit. So your pain is shared..... Good luck! ANDY P
Andy Perkins	Saturday 06 March 2010 9:55:00 am Hi Simon: Below is an email exchange between Andrew Veitch and me on a similar theme. As you can see, he is looking closely at K2 Waybacks with a Dynafit binding. Being an email exchange, they're in reverse order but you will get the drift: Hi Andrew If the set up is lighter, then the only disadvantages are: 1. more effort to break the trail in soft snow 2. slower edge to edge on steep hard snow Set against that is the increased float in soft snow and (more importantly in European touring) a more progressive break through on crust. My K2 Apache Outlaws are 88 underfoot and cope with just about anything. I'm 70kg in my thermals and 172cm in my socks. It's always a risk buying skis you can't test, but my personal view is that you're safer with K2's than many other brands. Hope that helps. ANDY P Hi Andy Sorry to pester you again for more advice. I hadn't previously considered moving up to such fat skis for touring. I can get a very good deal on K2 waybacks (88mm and lighter than backups at 3000g). With dynafit bindings these will be as light (or lighter) than many Fritschi setups with light touring skis. I know technology is changing and skis are getting fatter - are there any disadvantages to fatter skis for touring if weight can be offset? Do fat skis make much of a difference in european touring conditions? Thanks again for the advice - don't want to spend loads of money and get it wrong BW Andy V Hi Andrew Skis - I have heard good reports of the K2 Backup. I use K2 Apache Outlaws for general off piste work and am delighted with them. They are heavy however. So it depends on how strong you think you are and how much you value the ease of down vs. the effort of up. I'll be using Dynastar Altitrail Powders with Dynafit bindings weighing in at 3 kg for the entire package. In the long term if you want to invest in a touring set up, Dynafit is definitely the way forward. 78mm under foot is considered a bit narrow these days. I would advise a minimum of 80mm and many folk are touring on 88 to 90mm. How times change! A client has just invested in a pair of Scott Crusairs and is very happy with them. See http://www.andypmountainguide.com...base2/Ask-Andy/Touring-Skis-for-2010 Hope that helps. All the best ANDY P Dear Andy I will probably rent touring skis in the UK, but am considering buying as there are some deals around. Do you have any experience of K2 skis? The K2 backup has 82mm waist and would suit me at 167cm (I am 170cm tall, 70kg), but at 3250g per pair I was worried they might be too heavy for such a strenuous tour. I also have the opportunity to buy a pair of hardly used rossignol b78 respects in 166cm (78mm waist, 3000g) for a reasonable price (I skied a rental pair in a variety of conditions on and off piste, but not in deep powder, and they coped with everything well). If these are not ideal I would welcome suggestions for suitable alternatives. My current skis are Salomon X wing tornados 170cm with alpine bindings - I would like something lighter and less stiff for touring. Best wishes Andrew Veitch

Author

Message

Simon Duvivier

Friday 05 March 2010 10:50:11 am

Following the various uncomplimentary comments about my existing ski equipment on a recent tour with you, I went into all the shops in Argentiere looking at replacement gear.
There seemed to be several touring skis available with the right under foot width (85 - 90 mm) and all really light. However when I compared them with a "normal" ski, the weight saving on touring systems had mostly come from making the ski much thinner. Surely this must mean that they are less robust and likely to wear out much faster? Also there is much less "meat" to attach the bindings.
I still like to ski now and then on the piste so need a setup which is univeral and has a bit of grip in hard and icy conditions. Would these really thin and light skis do the job?
I suppose with all the other extra expenditure involved (skins, couteaux, and stoppers) one might as well go the whole hog and buy dynafit bindings as well? (rather than new Fritschi)
Now searching for finance to implement any new purchase.

Andy Perkins

Saturday 06 March 2010 9:42:25 am

Hi Simon

It's quite important to keep a wide view when selecting skis for touring. If you go into a shop asking about touring skis, they will automatically steer you towards the lighter end of the range aimed at ski touring racing. Manufacturers will too. If you look at Scott's reply to Mike Rae at http://www.andypmountainguide.com...base2/Ask-Andy/Touring-Skis-for-2010 talking about the Crusair, the product manager says

"It’s a versatile performance ski for all terrains and condition. At 1600 g this is not a super light hiking ski. The Crusair is 100% a new concept between mountaineering and freeride."

Many other freeride skis will be suitable for touring. Of course they will be heavier, so you can offset that weight increase with Dynafit bindings. However, the grip in hard and icy conditions that you're after has nothing to do with the weight specifically but with the stiffness of the ski. Stiffness can be engineered in with the materials without a significant increase in weight, such as the Crusair or the Dynastar Altitrail Powder which I am skiing on at the moment. I should add straight away that I am finding the Altitrail almost too stiff, so I wouldn't recommend it for you.

Will the ski wear out faster? That will depend more on your treatment of it than the ski. I get 2 to 3 years use out of my light touring skis doing about 6 weeks a year on them.
Will the bindings rip out of the base? I've never seen or heard of that happening in normal use.

So - in summary - check out a load of skis if you can on different hardnesses of snow. Remember that we also get hard snow while touring, not just on the piste. Go for a wide ski, and counter the inevitable increase in weight with a Dynafit binding.

I'm doing my end of year accounts right now and every year my biggest single category of expenditure is ski kit. So your pain is shared.....

Good luck!

ANDY P

Andy Perkins

Saturday 06 March 2010 9:55:00 am

Hi Simon: Below is an email exchange between Andrew Veitch and me on a similar theme. As you can see, he is looking closely at K2 Waybacks with a Dynafit binding. Being an email exchange, they're in reverse order but you will get the drift:

Hi Andrew

If the set up is lighter, then the only disadvantages are:
1. more effort to break the trail in soft snow
2. slower edge to edge on steep hard snow

Set against that is the increased float in soft snow and (more importantly in European touring) a more progressive break through on crust. My K2 Apache Outlaws are 88 underfoot and cope with just about anything. I'm 70kg in my thermals and 172cm in my socks.

It's always a risk buying skis you can't test, but my personal view is that you're safer with K2's than many other brands.

Hope that helps.

ANDY P

Hi Andy

Sorry to pester you again for more advice. I hadn't previously considered moving up to such fat skis for touring. I can get a very good deal on K2 waybacks (88mm and lighter than backups at 3000g). With dynafit bindings these will be as light (or lighter) than many Fritschi setups with light touring skis. I know technology is changing and skis are getting fatter - are there any disadvantages to fatter skis for touring if weight can be offset? Do fat skis make much of a difference in european touring conditions?

Thanks again for the advice - don't want to spend loads of money and get it wrong

BW

Andy V

Hi Andrew

Skis - I have heard good reports of the K2 Backup. I use K2 Apache Outlaws for general off piste work and am delighted with them. They are heavy however. So it depends on how strong you think you are and how much you value the ease of down vs. the effort of up. I'll be using Dynastar Altitrail Powders with Dynafit bindings weighing in at 3 kg for the entire package. In the long term if you want to invest in a touring set up, Dynafit is definitely the way forward. 78mm under foot is considered a bit narrow these days. I would advise a minimum of 80mm and many folk are touring on 88 to 90mm. How times change! A client has just invested in a pair of Scott Crusairs and is very happy with them. See http://www.andypmountainguide.com...base2/Ask-Andy/Touring-Skis-for-2010

Hope that helps.

All the best

ANDY P

Dear Andy

I will probably rent touring skis in the UK, but am considering buying as there are some deals around. Do you have any experience of K2 skis? The K2 backup has 82mm waist and would suit me at 167cm (I am 170cm tall, 70kg), but at 3250g per pair I was worried they might be too heavy for such a strenuous tour. I also have the opportunity to buy a pair of hardly used rossignol b78 respects in 166cm (78mm waist, 3000g) for a reasonable price (I skied a rental pair in a variety of conditions on and off piste, but not in deep powder, and they coped with everything well). If these are not ideal I would welcome suggestions for suitable alternatives. My current skis are Salomon X wing tornados 170cm with alpine bindings - I would like something lighter and less stiff for touring.

Best wishes

Andrew Veitch